Neglect of the elderly. Please read.

[Kimmy]

There is a lot of publicity in the news at the moment regarding the care of elderly patients in hospitals. I appreciate a lot of patients get first class treatment but a lot don't.

Regular visitors to this forum know that a few months ago my 84 years old neighbour Derek was taken into the Derby Royal Hospital. He was in there 13 weeks and was then discharged to a care home where he was resident for a few days before being rushed back to hospital where he died about 36 hours later.

Derek was a very mild mannered man very easy going and had faith in everybody. When he was admitted to hospital he weighed 7 stones. Yes not a typing error 7 stones. Having said that althought he was about 5'9" tall he had always been very slight build. During his stay in hospital I was not happy with the way he was treated and voiced my concerns a number of times to the staff and was told that it was nothing to do with me as I was not next of kin. Derek had never been married and had no immediate family and had nominated me as next of kin but as I was not blood related the hospital took no notice of me. As far as I know he was 'let out of bed' 5 times at the most and only once walked to the window of the ward. The rest of the time he was sat in a chair next to his bed. A number of times when I visited him which was daily the staff had left his food on a tray on a stand which could be moved over his bed but had been left out of his reach. This food was then removed and a note on his file saying no food taken. Other times cartons with the lid on had been left on the tray which he was, towards the end, unable to open himself were left unopened and finally removed unless I saw them and spoon fed him. When he died he weighed 5 stones. Yes I repeat 5 stones. He lost 2 stones in 13 weeks whilst in hospital. His cause of death is a private matter but it was not an illness which caused him to lose weight. Care/social service workers were only interested in one thing whilst he was in hospital and that was how much money he had and did he own his own house. He was asked his financial situation the very first day he was admitted to hospital. As soon as Derek had been admitted to hospital he sent for his solicitor as he wanted to get his finances sorted out before the authorities took all his savings. He saw his solicitor and they prepared papers for him to sign. As soon as the care/social worker got wind of this they informed his solicitor he was not mentally/physically fit to make decisions and refused to let his solicitor see him. Unfortunately his solicitor did not follow this up so it was left to me to question this decision and of course was told to more of less mind my own business. Derek being the kind of person he was never spoke up for himself and as he became weaker and weaker lost interest in things. I told the care/social workers they were not to see him without me being present and they never did see him during visiting times when I was there but saw him out of hours.

I have made an official complaint about Dereks treatment and am waiting for a reply. Whatever the reply is it will not bring Derek back.

I have posted this on the forum just to warn and inform you of my experience of how one elderly person was treated in hospital so if you have a family member or friend approaching the same situation to keep an eye on things. As I have said some people will say how fantastic the treatment they/friends received but there are thousends of others suffering at the hands of hospital staff as was proved by Dereks treatment.

[Kimmy]

In one of to days newspapers there is an article about a 77 year old man who fell unconscious in the street in these freezing conditions and was left there five yes 5 hours before somebody helped him. The street in question was a bus route. Hundreds of pedestrians and motorists are believed to have passed him without offering any help. I have seen this on films of the concentration camps during the war when people collapsed dying in the street and nobody stopped to help them. I appreciate that things in the camps were very much different to our streets. In the camps they were probably dying themselves and couldn't help but today it should be different but its not. Most people nowadays are so selfish its unbelievable. I was talking to a woman the other day who said "I only do things I like to do." I feel sorry for that person and people like that. Earlier this year when we had snow in January I slipped down and a man walking behind me left me lying on the pavement walking past and not saying a word. Its a very very sad state the world has got into.
I am sorry to say its the way of the world.

[andyor]

Hi Kimmy

A very sad story.....do let us know the outcome of your complaint.

Andyor

[Kimmy]

Hi Andy

Yes will do.

I know I will get nowhere but I owe it to Derek and others to try and get things improved. If enough people complain things might change. Having said that I am the first to acknowledge a good job and do so. It works both ways.

[banger]

As you see from my profile I am 83 and look after my daughter Mary who has a form of epilepsy
I get a visit from my neighbour to check are we OK for food and do I want any errands doing ,
I get a phone calls from kimmy who I am sure is just checking we are alright
Another friend who comes each week to do Marys hair both she and her husband will find out are we wanting anything
Kind people all of them pity there are not more the same in this world if there were we would not be reading all those sad stories
To each of these people my many thanks can never be enough

PS A young girl has just come trugging through the snow to deliver our prescriptions

[Kimmy]

I have received a letter form the hospital. Of course they state that they did everything right and that Derek had raised concerns about seeing his solicitor as if he had stated that he was not mentally capable of seeing him. They stated that nobody from the hospital told Derek that he was incapable of making decisions. This is a lie. They know as well as everybody else that Derek is no longer with us and he can't argue with this. They have still not answered why his care worker Jane Drew refused to divulge the names of the people who told Derek he was mentally incapable of making decisions.



I am writing to them again trying to get answers to unanswered questions.

[Kimmy]

Really angry about this. Lots of lies.

[Johngringo]

Hi Kimmy,

You describe a shocking state of affairs, that needs to be exposed.

"He saw his solicitor and they prepared papers for him to sign. As soon as the care/social worker got wind of this they informed his solicitor he was not mentally/physically fit to make decisions and refused to let his solicitor see him."

Firstly the decision of mental capacity has to be made by a qualified doctor and must have a clinical diagnosis. If indeed that procedure occured you must ask to see the name of the professional and the time and date the examination occured. As your friend wished to see his solicitor it is unusual that the solicitor was not invited to be present, but he should at least have been oficially informed of his clients incapacity posteriorly. A record of which should also be on file.

If I were you I wouldn't waste my time asking the people who may have committed these irregularities to investigate themselves as they are incapable of being objective.

Go to your police station and ask them to investigate the possibility that crimes may have been comitted when your friend was deprived of his right to his legal representative, and that coersion may have been applied to this end.

It is my experience that in any dispute you wish to win it is best to go straight for the throat.

[Kimmy]

Hi Johngringo

Thank you for taking an interest in this and your reply.

I have sort advice and my next step is to get access to the Socail Services notes on the case. I have an application form to examine Dereks medical notes but at this moment in time I don't think there is anything on them relating to the solicitor or who stated he has mentally and physically incapable of seeing his solicitor and making decisions. I am certain it is all down to Social Services.
I have spoken to the S.S. office manager who is sending me an application form and I will keep this thread updated when I get it.

[BC]

So sad to read KP.

Mum was in hospital in a terminal condition, (2007 - she's gone now), and generally had excellent treatment, although she did cite one incident of maltreatment by a night-nurse, but we were unable to find out who she was. Mum was the very easiest of patients, having nursed several close relatives herself, and had all her faculties right up to the end. She was always worried about having to trouble the care staff, so I think she was absolutely shocked and upset that a nurse could act in such a way.

---

Hi John,

Off topic I know, and not the cheeriest of threads to bid you welcome on, but nice to see you again anyway. Hope you're keeping well.

BC

[Kimmy]

BC

A lot of this sort of thing goes off in hospitals. And when you try and find out who committed the acts its a closed shop. No record on medical notes and of course they say the patient is confused and its not what happened. As I have said a lot of patients get excellent treatment but some are treated worse than prisoners of war. I know also that staff are under a lot of pressure and most do their best but I can assure you a lot don't. There are good and bad apples in every barrel. I also accept the fact that a lot of patients can be difficult to nurse and this has to be taken into consideration. But in my experience I have found that the polite and weak patients and those that are frightened or can't stand up for themselves get put on. I am sure that somebody out there reading this thread works in a hospital or has a friend or relative who works in one and can give a different side to the story. Reading in the Daily Mail this week some of the horror stories coming out of hospitals makes you cringe. Good and bad staff everywhere. I have worked with teams of people and there were some whose behavior I was disgusted with. Others were dedicated and gave their all. I know its like being an arm chair jockey we never ride a bad race and its easy to find fault with people but every day more and more ill treatment stories of patients are coming to light. If I had not experienced first hand ill treatment to a patient I would have put them down to paper talk. Numerous times I was visiting Derek in hospital a patient would have to wait ages for someone to attend to them after they had buzzed for assistance. At times Derek was positioned near the reception desk where the staff congregated and I could see them just standing there talking and laughing and using mobile phones yes mobile phones while the buzzers were still going. I have heard patients ask for bed pans and the member of staff has told them they would get them one and then went back and rejoined their colleagues and continued laughing and talking. When they were approached about the fact that someone was waiting for attention they said they were busy and they would have to wait their turn.
I am certain that somebody's blood out there is starting to boil reading this who works / knows people who work in hospitals and know that person does a good job and I know this happens. It happens in all walks of life. There is good and bad everywhere. I am the first to praise somebody when they do a good job. A thanks and a pat on the back costs nothing but when you know something is wrong and people are suffering we should all do our best to stamp this out. Nothing will bring Derek back and I am 100% certain that if he had not been treated the way he was treated in the Royal Hospital Derby he would be alive now. All I am trying to do is bring these incidents to the attention of the authorities and people who read this thread in the hope that they are very careful to monitor the treatment their friends and love ones receive if they are unfortunate enough to be admitted to hospital.

[dennisg]

very sad tale kimmy, but im afraid it's all to common.

i dont subscribe to the "oh aren't our nurses wonderful"tosh. but i know one thing, you wont get anywhere with your complaint, they just close ranks and ignore you till you give up. please keep us informed

[BC]

Dec 9, 2010 14:36:36 GMT dennisg said:

very sad tale kimmy, but im afraid it's all to common.

i dont subscribe to the "oh aren't our nurses wonderful"tosh.

Actually Dennis, I'd have to disagree with your there. Some of them, (perhaps even most of them), are wonderful, selfless and dedicated.

But of course, some just joined for a job, with no passion for it. And some really shouldn't be doing the job at all - as in the cases mentioned.

[Kimmy]

Dec 9, 2010 14:36:36 GMT dennisg said:

very sad tale kimmy, but im afraid it's all to common.

i dont subscribe to the "oh aren't our nurses wonderful"tosh. but i know one thing, you wont get anywhere with your complaint, they just close ranks and ignore you till you give up. please keep us informed

Hi Dennis

Yes I am finding this closing ranks. All I can do is keep pressing on and see how far I can get. One internal source advised me to go to the ombudsman if I get nowhere. As I say I know I will get nowhere, Derek is dead now so they know he can't back me up with any complaint.

[BC]

Dec 9, 2010 16:16:53 GMT Kimmy said:

Dec 9, 2010 14:36:36 GMT dennisg said:

very sad tale kimmy, but im afraid it's all to common.

i dont subscribe to the "oh aren't our nurses wonderful"tosh. but i know one thing, you wont get anywhere with your complaint, they just close ranks and ignore you till you give up. please keep us informed

Hi Dennis

Yes I am finding this closing ranks. All I can do is keep pressing on and see how far I can get. One internal source advised me to go to the ombudsman if I get nowhere. As I say I know I will get nowhere, Derek is dead now so they know he can't back me up with any complaint.

You could stand outside the visitors entrance handing out leaflets to visitors, outlining Derek's treatment and asking people to beware for their own relative and look out for others patients.

I daresay that will soon get back to the powers that be and they may feel forced to giving your complaint a priority - even if it gets a whitewash, you may bring the time down, and in the meantime, it may even do some good for those on the wards now.

[Kimmy]

Dec 10, 2010 11:11:30 GMT BC said:

Dec 9, 2010 16:16:53 GMT Kimmy said:

Hi Dennis

Yes I am finding this closing ranks. All I can do is keep pressing on and see how far I can get. One internal source advised me to go to the ombudsman if I get nowhere. As I say I know I will get nowhere, Derek is dead now so they know he can't back me up with any complaint.

You could stand outside the visitors entrance handing out leaflets to visitors, outlining Derek's treatment and asking people to beware for their own relative and look out for others patients.

I daresay that will soon get back to the powers that be and they may feel forced to giving your complaint a priority - even if it gets a whitewash, you may bring the time down, and in the meantime, it may even do some good for those on the wards now.

Until I can get any evidence which is going to very difficult speaking from experience It is just a matter of a waiting game. When / if I get access to the Social Services file this might shed some light on the matter but I would imagine by the time I get to that stage a lot of it will be missing. Bearing in mind any ill treatment / neglect will not be logged.

[dennisg]

does'nt this sad tale just illustrate the total contempt that officialdom / government / mp's / establishment have for the ordinary people of this once great nation.

im no anarchist, but i doe have sympathy with those rioters in london, here we have a coalition government dismanteling the welfare state without a mandate from the electorate. i know one thing for sure............if one of those mp's were unemployed for a year on £65 jsa as a single claiment then have to stump up 10% of their housing costs after a year of luxury on the dole then they might just realise that in OUR world life aint easy.

bring on the revolution!!!

[Kimmy]

As you know a letter from the hospital states that there is no record in Dereks notes to say that he was not fit to see his solicitor. Of course theres not. Yesterday I received a telephone call from the head of the social services dept. to say that if I want to see their file on Derek I am to apply to the local council Freedom Of Information Dept. being as Derek is deceased the file does not come under the DPA. I did study this act a number of years ago but couldn't remember this. So I am applying for access to their file. No doubt by the time I get to see it a lot of the unofficial notes will have been removed. Its very difficult when you are trying to establish what happened to somebody who is now deceased who had been in hospital. There get out clause all along is to say that a lot of these things didn't happen and that the patient was confused knowing of course the deceased can't argue with this. I don't know if I have mentioned this before, but if Derek was confused as they say he was, being I had been nominated as next of kin I should have been present when important decisions were made concerning Dereks welfare. I never was. All this went off outside visiting times.

[banger]

I have been following these notes with great interest,the way your search is being blocked,but I do believe that saying that truth will out
There must have been someone who cared and would be ready to step forward

[Kimmy]

As instructed I have emailed the local council for permission to look at the SS files. The trouble is as soon as they know you want to look at files it gives them time to remove any unofficial notes/separate reports before you get to see them. I think with the patients permission the next of kin should be able to access their hospital/SS notes at any time without giving prior notice. I know you can examine the notes left by the patients bedside at anytime but these bear no resemblance to the notes kept behind the ward reception desk. The bedside notes only contain day to day feeding, washing etc. of the patient so if you are in a position where you want to examine patients notes make sure you try and get access to the official ones not the ancillary notes. The main point I have to still establish is why Dereks social worker refused over the telephone to give me the names of 'the team' who certified why Derek was mentally and physically unfit to see his solicitor. I asked her twice and both times she refused to divulge this information. I have no doubt when/if I get access to their notes there will be no record of this conversation and she will no doubt deny being asked the questions. I have my own views as to why she withheld this information something I shall probably never prove. Some may think its a lot of work for somebody who is deceased but I feel I must do my best in the hope it might help others in the future who encounter similar problems.

[Walter Pidgeon]

It is uncanny how the authorities regularly close ranks whenever anyone has the temerity to ask questions regarding the level of care given to friends or relatives.
The recent scandal at a Hospital in Staffordshire is as far as we need to look to get an idea of what can & does go wrong.

[Kimmy]

WP

Very true. I have found this at my every move.

[Kimmy]

See page 13 of todays Daily Mail.

[Kimmy]

No reply to my email yet.

[Walter Pidgeon]

[Kimmy]

Dec 18, 2010 18:00:51 GMT Walter Pidgeon said:

Dont hold your breath Kimmy.

My wife was the victim of a botched routine eye op years ago in a Fife hospital... immediately afterwards she was referred to a top Edinburgh consultant to get the required scan but her records went missing & her appointment was delayed too long.
As the months went by & after many requests from my wifes sister who is a Solicitor she eventually got a scan but by that time it was too late and her vision had gone.
I could also give you a catalogue of misdomeaners that the Fife Health Board subjected my parents to in the later years of their lives.
As usual though this was covered up... Mum had more falls than Ruby Walsh whilst residing in the Nursing Home then they had the audacity to send us a bill for 19k for her care not long after she had died.
To put you in the picture we had moved in with mum after Dad had gone as she was suffering badly with dementia.
We had bought the house through my parents in the early 90`s which was a good arrangement for both parties as Mum & Dad were rent free for many years & we were able to buy the property at a fraction of its market value.
I knew that Fife Council had no legal rights to ask for this amount as my wife is registered disabled (Through her botched eye op as fate would have it)
Whilst any such person is currently resident in any property where a claim is being made on the estate... no payment is required.

WP

Terrible story. And there are millions of them out there.

[Kimmy]

Still no reply. There will be nothing left of the file if I ever get to see it.

[Trojan]

Unfortunately just had first-hand experience of this myself.

My elderly Father went into hospital on 28th December with a bladder infection. We were told he was also dehydrated.

Without going into detail his main complaints was being shouted at like a dog, having to wait 40 minutes to use the commode, and his requests for help being ignored as they were busy

The last two times I visited him, he had no water in his jug to drink, and had been without such for hours.

He told us he would rather die than stay in this place and got very upset at the way he was treated.

He discharged himself last Wednesday and died the next day.

[BC]

Very sorry for your loss Trojan. And the circumstances surrounding it.

In for dehydration and no water in his jug... what the ?

[banger]

This was so sad. The staff at the hospital who treated your father with such disrespect would do well to remember one day they will be old and although deserving it I can only hope they will get treated better than that